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April 12, 2005
Sprucing Up Engineering's Status
U.S. students are losing interest in studying engineering and science--a trend we can no longer afford to ignore, warns the CEO of Cisco Systems. Here's what we need to do to mend the trend:
According to John Chambers, head honcho at Cisco, we should fix our educational system from the ground up. Talking to Fortune columnist David Kirkpatrick, he is frank about what we're risking by not placing enough emphasis on engineering and science--our competitive advantage. "We have to be realistic," he tells Kirkpatrick. "We're losing the battle." For proof, Chambers says, look to a 2004 Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) study. It found that American 15-year-olds place only 24th in math and 18th in science among 38 industrialized countries.
To rebuild our intellectual capital, we have to overhaul our entire educational system, starting from kindergarten through college and beyond, says Chambers. Get students--girls and boys in equal measure--interested in engineering and other technical disciplines early on, he urges. "We either gain the hearts and minds of the students in kindergarten through eighth grade, or we lose them," he comments to Kirkpatrick. He suggests faster-paced teaching with a renewed and more rigorous focus on math and science. He also encourages recruiting more top-caliber teachers, saying that he would like the "top 25% of people in the country thinking about teaching, and not just the people who have a good heart."
His recommendations reflect those of TechNet, a national coalition of high-tech executives, in which he is an outspoken member. Last month, the group released the TechNet Innovation Initiative and Innovation Policy Agenda, which supports full funding of the federal No Child Left Behind Act and greater funding for math and science in schools around the country and in research programs.
Chambers points out that in China and India--each with a population topping one billion--educational programs are geared toward sharpening the math and science skills of their brightest students. Currently, China cranks out five engineering graduates for every new one in the United States, he says. "In China and India, they clearly understand that if they get the engineers, then they get the managers, then they get the companies, then they get the innovation," he tells Kirkpatrick. His own company, which recognizes how absolutely critical engineers are, "goes to where the startups are," including local spots as well as overseas locations such as Shanghai and Bangalore. "How our company grows depends on our engineers," he says, adding that each engineering job at Cisco generates two more jobs in the company and two or three additional jobs in the local economy.
To beef up engineering education, Cisco--along with other tech companies such as Sun, Adobe and Hewlett-Packard--have developed web-based technical programs, called Network Academies, that are available to high schools, colleges, universities and community-based organizations. In particular, Cisco provides equipment for these programs, of which there are more than 4,000 in the U.S. and some 10,000 around the world.
But bolstering engineering education is only one part of the solution, points out Chambers. Some countries are also rapidly building up their infrastructures. For instance, China is setting up a more advanced broadband infrastructure and establishing a regulatory environment that is even more favorable toward innovation than its U.S. counterpart. "This should create a sense of urgency for us," says Chambers. Despite the fact the country's edge is eroding, he remains upbeat. He tell Fortune, "We control our destiny, because the U.S. has a huge advantage of great universities, and because once we make up our mind to do something, we do it well."
Source:
Cisco CEO on U.S. Education: 'We're Losing the Battle'
David Kirkpatrick
Fortune, March 30, 2005
www.fortune.com/fortune/fastforward/0,15704,1043600,00.html
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116 CommentsWhy would young people go into engineering and science when they see their parents and older people being laid off. I advise highschool and college age children against technical careers. Law, business, and medical fields offer promise.
Engineering, computer science, architecture offer 1-5 years of work and then layoffs. See what the US government says about the subject of promising careers.
April 12, 2005 2:45 PMYou have got to be joking, right?
The engineering field is so unstable, lay-off's here and there, who would want to enter the field today? These big players like Cisco have no loyalty to the employees they currently have and never will. Other fields such as medical and legal are much more secure and stable for the long haul. Again...give me a break!
April 12, 2005 2:59 PMThere is no room for any more chemistry, physics, and math courses in most high schools because there are already too many other required courses. Since our American companies are just going to out-source our engineering jobs to India eventually anyway, what is the incentive for going into engineering?
April 12, 2005 3:00 PMWe need another Mother Russia space race in America to engage the country. That event could be how to replace gas with another fuel source; but it gets turned on and off too easily; we are not commited. America is standing on her laurels and we are growing poorer because we are not producing anything here. We have become a service country which is making us poor. I miss the days when I could have, or be, a young draftsman to mentor and grow that person to become an engineer. Now there are no slots to allow this person and the engineer does the drafting as they design. My daughter will graduate from the University of Washington at age 18 in Finance and she could have been an excellent engineer, but Dad could not make her go the engineering route. She got her AA and High School diploma on the same day by not attending a High School with lower standards. You need to also get Mom back in the house. Jimmy Carter days (interest rates at 22%) only inflated our economy so it took two incomes to pay for the same thing and now Mom was gone from the household. So rebuilding just the High School is not going to get us there. Come on Mother Russia event come now!!!
April 12, 2005 3:49 PMDefinitely a joke!
I'm a mechanical designer that works with mechanical and electrical engineers so I know that they aren't respected by employers, are the first to get blamed for any problems, never praised, the last to receive new technology, work long hours, are underpaid, and the first to get laid-off! I tell all teenagers I can to NOT go into engineering for just these reasons. I myself have been laid-off three times in the past five years. These companies should have treated engineering employess better so they wouldn't be in this problem now.
April 12, 2005 4:00 PMWell I am sure that Mr. Chambers feels good about himself after this speech. Unfortunately, he doesn't mention that for every American engineer that he hires the two jobs created are in India. Once the Indian positions are trained, he lay's off the American engineer and then sits back and watches his stock price climb.
But at least Cisco, Sun, Adobe and Hewlett-Packard wil get a nice tax break for the program involvement mentioned in the article.
We're not all that stupid!
April 12, 2005 4:00 PMI would not recommend any child into engineering until the issue of corporate greed is taken care of. In Wisconsin we have went from 36% of the jobs in manufacturing in 1990 to less than 18% today. And all that you here from managers is we need to raise shareholder value. Lets send it offshore.
April 12, 2005 4:12 PMI too echo the above comments in regards loyalty to engineers or others in or related to the field.
But come on-in reality, it always comes back to the $$. And as our economy struggles to regain stability in an unstable world, companies will continue to source to the lowest bidder while sacrificing quality and possibly their local interests. It's just to the point now where its happening to so many that concern is being rasied.
-Also-
"Teachers that cannot teach". I can remember only one teacher out of them all that had any sense of what it took to not only get the information into our heads but the reasons, practical application, why "I" needed this and how it effected me. The others mentality on teaching was "stuff it in quick, memorize it for a test and it was forgotten", because there was seemingly no reason for any further interest.
How I really wish I had more teachers that knew what they where teaching and knew how to teach.
I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've been in this crummy racket for 30+ years. I got down-sized, right-sized and happy-sized 3 times in 4 years. Right now, I'm hoping I can hold onto my present job until retirement, assuming that Management doesen't loot my 401K between now and then.
I tell prospective engineering students that they'll have 10-20 yrs, maybe 30 yrs if they're lucky, of interesting and useful work after graduation. After that, their room-mate who flunked out of engineering (and changed his major to Marketing) will be running the company. Joe Executive will then outsource their job, leaving them the prospect of finding another in their 40's or 50's.
If we're losing the battle, as Mr. Chambers maintains, it's largely because of people like him.
April 12, 2005 4:19 PMIt is outragous for Chambers to say Cisco must go to "Shanghai and Bangalore" because there are not enough engineers in the US. How many engineers have been let go by companies like Cisco so far in the US? "We're losing the battle."
April 12, 2005 4:19 PMTo all the naysayers above:
I have been an engineer for just over 30 years. I've changed jobs 5 times in my career--always at my choice; always for professional advancement or due to a geographical preference. I've made a decent enough living to pay for an Ivy League education for my son. I'm set up nicely for retirement. My point: engineering is a promising career. People probably do get laid off more frequently now than when I started my career, but that applies to other professions as well.
The medical field is certainly another promising career. Major advances have been made in medicine over the past few decades. I ask: who has designed the techology that made those advances possible? I don't think that a lawyer, an accountant or even an MD developed CT scanning technology just to site one example.
When your life is improved, chances are an engineer is responsible.
April 12, 2005 4:19 PMI agree with everyone else's comments about engineers being considered a commodity amongst companies in today's society. All of their points are valid, and have been seen in an increasing manner in the past 5 years.
As far as educating our youth...spare me the rhetoric! What is the first thing that gets cut from State and local funding when they need to make budget cuts? That's right....school funding. In my old high school physics class all we had to do experiments with were anitquated equipment, most of which didn't work because it was so old.
Some foreign countries do have an advantage in education, not because they are necessarily smarter, because they have adequate school funding available. Why is this....because we have been continously increasing our outsourcing to their countries. Plain and simple!
April 12, 2005 4:27 PM
I agree with the Indian influence on the engineering profession. I am ready to retire and have worked for at least a dozen companies, leaving all not on my own choice.
If you want to get young people into engineering the schools and world must stop treating them as an expendable commodity.
I have been a civil engineer for 23 years, a Federal employee. I have changed jobs 4 times within the Fed Govt. I have to agree with all of the positive and negative comments, because they all have merit. I have always recognized a certain amount of "negativity" and "appreciation" towards engineers in general, and it is difficult these days to know who is friendly towards engineers and who is not! I had a high level position, and was demoted to a virtual "entry level" position due to a reduction in force... and I was one of the LUCKY engineers to be retained!
I see the misunderstanding of "engineering" and its devaluation in America as very widespread. I welcome any help to encourage engineers to better defend thier qualities and talents (which are very much needed in a technologincal society). Americas rush to "outsourcing" and becoming a "service" oriented country is leaving engineers with little resources in a country that should be producing clearand absolute LEADERSHIP in this field.
I agree with Glen wholeheartedly... "When your life is improved, chances are an engineer is responsible". I say they should be Americans because we do have the best resources to advance engineering!
April 12, 2005 4:48 PMI hear the cries for help and see little response...
I am a member of a small professional organization that tries to promote printed circuit design and related engineering disciplines and we see our valiant efforts to increase educational content in our community colleges and universities meeting with a disturbing trend to reduce and even eliminate vocational and engineering curriculums by the college administrations. We have tried to overcome this negative institutional attitude with little success. It seems engineers are not in vogue these days…
I recently wrote a letter to my congressman and local assemblyman regarding this trend and have not received any indication of their understanding of the problem... I hoped that the speeches given by the President regarding a project to the Moon and beyond would inspire legislators to take another look at our dwindling supply of engineers and scientists… and do something about it.
I would like to point out that I believe there are two fronts in this battle for our future. The obvious front is involved with our efforts to secure fully funded programs with properly trained teachers to lead the classes...and I think this article by Katrina C. Arabe covering the interview with John Chambers of Cisco points that out… The other 'front' is involved with successfully supporting the cooperative efforts of the parents of these gifted children that may be potential engineers and technical students. Many parents are looking for some relief from the heavy burdens they must undertake to get their children into the programs...if they can find the programs and keep their children supported through the years of learning they must spend to acquire the knowledge they need to succeed as engineers. The students need our support, and the parents need our support… in order to get the more technical careers.
Our nation's intellectual trust is being squeezed from both sides... and the kids are growing up thinking they cannot make a decent living in engineering, they have no leaders who are engineers to which they can look for inspiration, and the media presents play and frivolous pursuits as the glamorous option to hard work and intellectual pursuits… Students think all they need is to find an alternative easy path for success, and give up on engineering... it's too much work, it doesn't inspire them… we can see that from the statistics…
ROBOTICS and NANO electronics seem to be the frontiers to conquer next but our Nation needs to invest in its future in order to make that happen. The other nations around the world see the need and are doing something to secure their futures… when will we wake up?
If there is no inspiration we get no innovation or advancement... Are we becoming apathetic? Where are the funds for Research and Development and technical education? What can be done to help the parents who would love to see their bright kids become the next engineers...? Why can't we sow the seeds of inspiration in the hearts of kids in High school or Middle school or even Elementary school?
Do you remember having technical programs in your schools when you were young? Check out what your kids are getting now… They have cancelled wood shop and metal shop, or even auto repair classes, there's no funding we are told… what about drafting, mechanics or electronics?... they just aren't seen anywhere, technology related disciplines are rarely even talked about... Who's going to do these tasks when you and I retire in a few years? Will we have the companies going to India and other countries that have been training their engineers?… will we not be the innovators anymore?… Are we turning into a nation of accountants and CEOs that run foreign operations and here at home we are surrounded by burger flipping service sector jobs?
We didn't get to be the greatest nation on earth by just taking for ourselves alone... We always give back. We reinvest in our families, in our people to help make us great... we should not forget how we ourselves have struggled and were helped by the previous generations before us… we need to reach back to lend a hand to the next generation... and help them become the next ones to help their children… like in a relay race…to pass the baton…. it's our responsibility. Make an investment in our future. Pay it forward….
He or she who has gained the knowledge and experience, and didn't share it with his friends…looses for us all when it leaves with them when they retire… don't let that happen to us. Pass it on.
Bill Brooks, Vista, CA
Once the shortage becomes accute, the relative value of a carrer in engineering will increase and more young students will want to pursue an engineering degree and career. Economics will address the supply and demand part of the problem.
Education is an other matter alltogether. The education establishment seems to be less and less interested in teaching rigorous curicula in any subject, much less math and science. Sadly, when the demand for engineers reaches the point where young students want to pursue an engineering career, many won't have the primary education needed to do it.
April 12, 2005 5:07 PMMechanical Product Design and Development since 1960 provides two thoughts: (1) There are engineers and then there are innovaters, who will always find employment. (2) After turning our education system over to the Feds, circa 1966, counselors discourage students from taking difficult courses that can lower the GPR required to enter college or receive a schlorship. The old system required "C" to pass on but did not penalize for not making "A's". Old college curriculum was 18 hours every semester except freshman (15). Now students carry 12-15 hours per semester, eliminating valuable, peripheral courses.
April 12, 2005 5:10 PMThis is an interesting article and I think that this guy has a lot of good points and is right in many ways. Our country has a big problem with its educational system and if any of you out there think otherwise maybe you should enroll in your local high school and take a class with your kid to see what they teach now. The solution isn't adding more classes but improving the ones that are there and improving the teaching methods. The system needs a major overhaul! Same goes with our Universities, I just graduated from the University of Washington and there are many issues with retaining professors and getting new ones. My schools paper just ran an article on it. Its sad, and I know it first hand since one of the best professors in the department I graduated from is leaving to go do other things. The system needs change.
Being a new engineer I see a lot of what's been commented about with being laid off and the field being unstable, but I have to say that if people are looking for stability in our field you are in the wrong place. Engineering is all about creativity, how can there be creativity if there's stability? Instability mixes up the brain trust that is out there. It forces us to move companies and learn new things and pass on what we know already. Yes layoffs happen (been there and done it already), yes we change jobs, but if it weren't for that then where would new experiences come from? The world is constantly changing, its not what it was like 50 years ago. Its up to us to embrace it and make it work for us and we have to convey that to the younger generations. It's a great field to be in if its what you want to do. If you don't like the industry then get out so those of us who are new get in and stay.
April 12, 2005 5:14 PMAs an professional electrical engineer with 40 years experience, I laugh at management crying for more engineers while not treating us as professionals by offering either very high pay or some job security. There is no shortage of engineers in the U.S., just a shortage of CHEAP engineers. If engineers are in such demand, why do all the bonuses and perks go to management?
My daughter and son-in-law are both EE's and have been through three RIFs in 20 years. My grandson is an EE student but is hedging his bets with a dual major in EE and Japanese with a minor in business.
April 12, 2005 5:15 PMI used to work for a 'major' aerospace company, you know, the places that treat you like an exspendable commodity. I was an R&D composites Engineer, always coming up with new and better ways to build stuff, always wanting to expand and grow the company. Well all the company wanted to do is lean things out, get rid of all the equipment, except for what we needed to build product for the next six months, and farm EVERYTHING else out, even at the cost of core competencies. So, what's a motivated R&D guy suppost to do, especially when you can't even beat an industry average wage out of them?
So I basiclly got so fed up I quit (year 2000), mostly for my own sanity AND alot better pay, joined a small composites company my fellow R&D buddies started, and now we're doing R&D and production for the entire industry. Big companies like Cisco are okay to start out in, but don't think your going anywhere there, unfortunatly your just a numbered commodity, unless someone in upper management is looking out for you.
Probably sounds like a lot of sour grapes, but don't get me wrong, I had ALOT of fun in the waning 'hayday' of aerospace learning what I know about composites, but it became really unfun at the end, saw way too many guys 48 years old with 18 years in the company out right fired so the company didn't have to pay their pensions and medical, and had no reason to see why they wouldn't do it to me.
Just one view from an Engineer in the trenches. Would never work for a large company like 'Cisco' again, unless someone from upper management hired me. Engineering only pays about half of what a doctor will earn, about a third of what a lawyer will earn, and about one seventh to one tenth of what a CPA will make, and gets about one one-hundreth of the respect from society compared to any other 'profession'. I know, waa, waa, waa, but if I were to do it all over again --- I probably would become a CPA.
Yikes! Some pretty strong feelings were expressed in readers' comments and certainly pessimistic at that. As for law, there are too many lawyers now fighting for the next lawsuit. Even doctors' salaries are under tremendous pressure from HMO's, not to mention the stress from the above-mentioned lawyers.
Engineers will be needed (I hope) for the long run and engineering is an excellent background for many fields, even law, medicine and business. I agree that the last several years have not been generous with engineering opportunities. Are we in the middle of a shift away from manufacturing and product design in the US? Engineers are needed to maintain our past levels of innovation. This and entrepreneurship are still America's strengths.
April 12, 2005 5:27 PMWith today's current trend of layoffs, combined with continued support of H1B visas, companies are effectively treating these skill sets as commodities. Those engineers who have persisted over the past 4 years bear a closer resemblance to migrant farm workers than the highly educated and skilled professionals that they are. Companies who are the pioneers of outsourcing are driven by the profits afforded by cheap labor, and their competitors follow them out of the country in order to remain competitive. To solidify their positions in these emerging markets, companies like Cisco are increasing their investment in R&D in countries like China, India and Korea. These decisions are driven by the profit side of the equation -- that is where the bonuses get paid out. Civics does not factor into the equation.
Kids that are bright enough to aspire to become engineers, are bright enough to figure out that the return on investment for an engineering degree is questionable at best. Until there is a political will to deal with labor dumping from third world countries, and deal with tax payer subsidized corporate emigration, an engineering degree is of no more value than the next.
While I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Kirkpatrick's assertion that public education in this country is fatally flawed, I find is analysis a little disingenuous given that Cisco's $380+ million investment in foreign research facilities follows the layoff of 8,000 Cisco employees and contractors a few short years ago.
April 12, 2005 5:45 PMI feel strongly that the our corporate "leaders" are solely responsible for the current trend. I wonder how many highly talented Engineers John Chambers has removed from Cisco's payroll over the last 5 years in joining the outsourcing bandwagon.
He expects the same Engineers to encourage the younger generation to follow in their footsteps? I'll keep my children away from Engineering (and whatever John's been smoking) at all costs!
I am hardware designer with over 20 years experience. Products I've designed are used as reference designs world wide, yet the only work I can find is to either correct outsourcing failures or manage outsourcing ventures.
I believe that Engineering attracts, or used to attract, individuals who were motivated by challenge and enjoyed the continuous skill development required to remain at the top of one's profession. North American job opportunites in Engineering are more "fringe" positions than ever - service, sales, management - and involve very little of what we consider "Engineering", and a bad match for those with Engineering aptitude.
April 12, 2005 7:28 PMI am a former high school teacher who quit teaching 20 years ago in disgust because our education model was(and still is) the last vestige of the 19th century factory model, obsolete before there was an Internet. Now, it is a joke.
Additionally, our culture does not revere, respect, nor reward quality teachers. The pervasive culture in secondary school of Party, Party, Party, don't do your homework, and valuing misbehavior instead of accomplishment creates a totally unproductive atmosphere for learning. Much as I tried to teach my students to think, not just memorize, it was hopeless for most of them.
When we start to realize that children and teens are not raw materials to be formed into standardized products by age 18, and that school is not a baby sitting arrangement, until REAL LIFE begins, maybe then we can grow people who are capable of achieving their greatness, whatever that may be.
Meanwhile, as a recruiter, I continue to try, try, try, to find anyone who is an American citizen who can design and build tunnels, bridges, highways, etc. etc. etc.
April 12, 2005 8:04 PMhi all, read with interest the article by CISCO honcho. His fears are not unfounded. With the largest technically trained manpower in the world INDIA is rearing to go after years of playing the bridsmaid, to the rest of the world. I still feel she is still not ready and ripe to become the bride as yet as there are huge problems to be tackled back home but nevertheless I feel any/every american CEO cannot afford to miss/ignore INDIA or CHINA if he wants to retain his job and his bottom line.
cheers
How about the current job opportunities available with CISCO?
April 12, 2005 11:44 PMI quit the practice of law to pursue the more satisfying self employment of manufacturing iron products. Also the Doctor I sued had a lawyer for a wife and she was chummy with the Judge who had a doctor for a husband! I was a patent attorney as well as a regular attorney. I have read some economics books as well. To all the pesimists who have chimed in above I strongly recommend "The Worldly Philosophers" by Heilbroner This book sums up our historical understanding of economics and may better focus thier attention on the problem at hand. That is all it is: a problem.
What I find also very interesting is how the stumbling block to the resolution of the problem is accurately described in Proverbs in the bible. The wealthy don't want to be upstaged by some smart but poor engineer. The general public will believe a rich corporate president before an engineer anyday.
Focus!
April 13, 2005 3:00 AM"We have become a service country which is making us poor"
I'd like to shed a little light on what a "Service Economy" is and it won't be the USA. Service referes to those entities that serve the basic fundamental economic activities Agriculture, Mining, Manufacturing, all other activities like banking, insurance, health, Education, are dependant on the basic activities and if you don't have those you will lose all the periphaials that don't directly make something of value, Like the Boone Pickens says "money goes where it is well treated". Do you think the Chinese will come to New York to do their banking? Really? In the next decade? Especially when we start to default on our Treasure Securities we sold them today and yesterday. They tell us to stuff it and ignore, copyrights, Trademarks, Contracts, Brand names, all of it, and tell us thanks for the payment. They won't need a ICBM.
"As far as educating our youth...spare me the rhetoric!"
Have you ever been to Manilla, there's thousands of degreed people walking around with nothing to do. They do export nurses though. Good ones, just as good as you can educate here in the USA. Education dose seem to be a good thing to go into though since they have the strongest union ever, are paid way in excess of what Engineers are on an hourly basis, and have none of the stress that comes with deadlines, budgets, dispicable bosses.
"ROBOTICS and NANO electronics seem to be the frontiers to conquer next"
Twaiwan is making a concerted effort to be the leader in this frontier as is India, Malaysia,et,al. We have a lot of compition on this one.
The Free Market spoken about by the administration, including that marvel from the last century Greenspan is a lie. We need to wake up and take care or ourselves.
Mark
To survive in the economy of the future kids have to learn Maths and Science. There is no option. Can you imagine not teaching your kids English? Language and communication is essential for the social survival of our species. Similarly the language of machines - maths and science - is essential for sanity in the modern gizmo world. You may have lawyers, doctors, financial analysts etc. but they should first be Engineers. Chambers has hit the nail right on the 'thumb'. It hurts but so does the daily dose of cereal and veggies we feed our kids.
April 13, 2005 9:01 AMI don't understand the all the whining above. I have 25 years of engineering under my belt, and don't regret one second of it. The thought of being a lifer in the same company and doing basically the same job after 30 years makes me shudder!
As engineers, we need the challenge and stimulation we get from turning uncertainty into resolution. It is what makes us tick, and why we are engineers. We solve the problems of humanity, and if everything were nice and neat and stable and oh so comfy there wouldn't be much need for us to be engineers. It is the nature of the profession! If you can't take the heat, go to your local Wal-Mart or Home Depot. They have a spot for you that will last as long as the company does.
As for our education system, only one of the writers got it right above. My kids are smart, educated and productive tax paying citizens because my wife and I didn't depend on the public schools to educate them. We brought them into this world, and we took responsibility for them and their education!
Learning doesn't stop once you leave the school grounds. If you have children, then for Gods sake and the sake of humanity, don't abdicate your responsibility as a parent to the day care centers to make your kids useful citizens (and engineers). Do what our neighbors across the seas do; raise your kids right, teach them a good work ethic, make them study and then send them to a good old fashioned AMERICAN UNIVERSITY!!!
Interesting comments, and very strong opinions. Well, here's another 2 cents worth. There is no such thing as "corporate greed" - only individual greed, since corporations are made up of people. The U.S. has become an awful example of individual greed, and an increasingly God-less society. Our standard of living is becoming lower because of offshore sourcing of jobs, but in China and India and other countries, their standard of living is slowly improving. We in the U.S. want to pay low prices for products, but want high pay for making those products. These two goals are inconsistant, and never could be sustained. Long-term, given a perfectly free-market, the standard of living should eventually be the same in all countries - hello, America! - this means our average standard of living must become lower than we've enjoyed for years. We've been spoiled by our leadership position, and we've grown complacent and lazy. No amount of protectionist legislation will be sustainable either, simply because we won't accept paying considerably more for U.S.-produced things, and we're in a world market which will normally retaliate or find loopholes anyway. So be thankful for what you've got, and be thankful that millions of impoverished people in third world countries are pulling themselves up by being productive. And stop whining about how corporations and government aren't taking care of you. Just be the best you can be, and encourage your children to do the same. Oh, and by the way, I'm an engineer who is glad I followed the path I've taken.
April 13, 2005 10:48 AMThis is just a sample of what is happening to developed countries in economic field, because of the money accumulation of big companies, whose CEOs do not manage niether let manage macro-economic facts. The scope with which matters like employment are managed is too short and narrow.
Ecologycal solutions, at a high human cost, will appear.
The reason we engineers have no status, even though we developed the technology of modern world, is because we neither promote nor defend ourselves. We allow anyone to call themselves engineers: consider all the software engineers who are not engineers at all. Imagine how long someone could get away with calling themselves an attorney or physician who was not.
We are too focused on the scientific marvels we invent rather than the real world in which we must make a living.
April 13, 2005 3:20 PMEducation is the root of the problem. Teachers don't teach.
Educators either don't want to or don't know how to teach math and science to those of whom it doesn't come naturally.
Massive amounts of homework are assigned and virtually assure that the student will not have time to study and learn the material.
Almost every one of my college engineering professors were of the opinion that, if a student can't immediately grasp any concept being presented, he doesn't belong in engineering.
For those students that do have a natural tendency toward math and science there lies the barrier of the extreme cost of a college education. Get a college degree then spend your entire professional life paying for it.
No wonder we are not producing engineers and scientists.
If asked, I would steer my boys away from studying engineering. These positions are usually some of the first to be contracted out or sent off shore. As long as US companies treat engineering positions (as well as others) like a commodity this trend will continue.
April 14, 2005 1:06 PMThis was forwarded to me from a member of the International Technology Education Association. As a current Technology Education teacher I want to ask all of you who commented here a question, What are you doing about this? You make very good points about education, but how many of you are visiting the classrooms, judging the regional and state Technology Student Association Competitions? How many of you are being mentors to these young people? We are Americans! And as Americans if we see a problem we react. What you need to do, is ask why we have these problems with education, and then ask what you can do to help. Visit schools, join or attend district school board meetings and become active in our countries educational system. Funding for our programs is in trouble, and we need you to speak out and make sure that your representatives in politics know that this is an important part of our country's educational system. Give suggestions to teachers and administrators on how to make their junior high, high school and even college programs even better, and/or compliment their efforts, and be there to help them do it. Visit the International Technology Education Website www.iteawww.org or do a search for it and see what we are doing and let our leaders know what they can do better. This acknowledgement will carry us a long way. We must work together, what can you do for your community, your region, your state, and your country. If you are not preparing for your future, you are preparing for your failure. Let us choose not to fail!
Ted Weiberg
Richardson North Junior High
Richardson, Texas
Mr. Weiberg, I agree with you. Many people today will sit back and complain about things, but nobody really wants to do anything about it. I'm not saying that everyone in this country is lazy, but I do believe it is a serious problem. I also believe kids today don't want to go into engineering and science careers because they are afraid of failure. Standards have gone up. ACT and SAT scores can make or break someone. I'm not sure if it's the school system's fault, but I do know that most kids aren't going to try something if they don't have the confidence or encouragement from their teachers or parents. As far as people being layed off, well, there are other jobs where that is happening just as much. Let me just say that this country is more than amazing, and I am honored to say that I will be serving for her this coming school year. I think this country needs more patriotism. Whether you like what's going on right now or not. America needs to be united. People need to stop being selfish and wake up and smell the roses! We don't have the freedoms we do today because our grandfather's sat around! They had to go and fight for what we have today! If anybody disagrees, maybe they should go live in Iraq for a few months and compare it to the United States. Our society is spoiled. Spoiled rotten. Students, especially ones in high school, are treated like children. No wonder engineering and science degrees are going down...kids are too lazy to do all the work! Think about how much math and science they would have to do!? Intead of being pushed in high school to take those classes (Physics, Chemistry, Calculus), they are given the choice of physical education, reading for pleasure, or even film and literature! Why are people so shocked that these kinds of degrees are going down! Think about it! It's really not that hard to understand! Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming anything on teacher's. I simply think that our society is so spoiled that kids are going to take the easy way out, even if that means choosing a career that they won't be satisfied with.
Have a good one,
Betsy
I excelled in math and science in high school. I took two years of college physics and was very motivated by the space program (I am the same age as Sally Ride). I was repeatedly told that the only career for me was as a teacher. I dropped physics, graduated from college in urban planning, and have worked in a variety of fields.
By the way, I recall the SAME arguments in 1969.
Come on - encourage everybody or the USA gets left in the dust.
I have a couple of questions for John Chambers:
1. Say John, how many people in technical/engineering positions has Cisco laid-off in the last 5 years?
2. How do you expect the top 25% of people in this country to go into teaching when the teaching salaries in the U.S. don't pay enough to keep the teachers that we've got now?
I have already discouraged my own children from going into engineering; then again, it wasn't tough to do. They've had to live with all the moves caused by all the layoffs I've experienced over the past 25 years. If I had it to do all over again, I would go into finance with a minor in computers (to satisfy the technical part of me) so college would have been more of a wholistic learning experience, rather than the brain-buster it was. That way I could run the company without nearly the stress I've had to put up with wondering when the finance types were going to cut my capital budget, thereby cutting me.
Engineers used to be on the fast track to the top office; now they're on the fast track to the unemployment office.
Cisco is no better or worse than any other company as far as using one's technical expertise, then disposing of it at the first opportunity.
April 19, 2005 12:15 PMAnother problem is the engineering schools that pump out far more engineering graduates than are needed by society. Many third and fourth tier schools "carry" a high percentage of students that aren't qualified, in order to get their tuition payments and insure the school's survival. Society's respect for engineers suffers. Of course, this keeps industry happy, because they can pick only the best and brightest, while keeping wages for engineers just above that for high school graduates.
Theoretically, a course of study in engineering is more intellectually demanding than medicine and law. There is a heavy concentration of mathematical courses. (Remember "Partial Differential Equations"?) However, grading is often done heavily "on a curve", weeding out only the very worst students. Literally, it is sometimes possible to get a "C" just by showing up for the final exam and writing your name. (But, in fairness, some of the courses are so abstract, that requiring a complete understanding of them is probably unreasonable, considering the demanding syllabus of an engineering education.)
Until engineering schools start demanding high standards of intelligence and professionalism from their students, and graduate only the more competent engineers; the profession will suffer and industry will continue to prey on engineers. The academic standards for engineers need to approach those for doctors. (Although actually, the standards for doctors aren't always as high as you might think.) Right now, engineering schools (particularly those in the third and fourth tiers) will accept almost anyone with a high school degree, and usually "carry" all but the very dumbest through to graduation.
We've recently gotten some appalling stupid graduates, masquerading as engineers. Some of these people, almost literally, don't know what the square root of 4 is. They don't even know basic grade school facts, like how many feet are in a mile, etc.
I tell all the brighter young people that I talk to - stay out of Engineering, and go into Medicine or Law. I tell them only to go into engineering if they have an overwhelming, insatiable interest in technical subjects. In the case of a truly bright person interested in technical subjects, basic science will be more fulfilling, but they will probably need to get a Phd to be credible.
Engineering is a horrible waste of a mind, for a person with truly superior intelligence.
Amazing, once again, amazing. I am an engineer by nature, with a world-class degree in chemical engineering, and once again, I am amazed by the CEO. I judge my CEO based upon whether or not the average raise package exceeds the rate of inflation. Well, even though I have done better than average many times, I don't guess I've ever had a good CEO.
I've already decided that if I get right-sized one more time, I'm taking a year off and getting a nursing degree.
I've been a productive engineer for 21 years. I just reviewed the starting salary data for chemical engineers, and it is 19,000 less than my current salary. My accountant would tell me that means each year of my experience is only worth forty three cents an hour.
If these facts don't help you understand why there are fewer and fewer engineers and scientists in this country, then may your god help you, because there's no other hope.
Pay me or kiss me goodbye.
April 19, 2005 12:35 PMGood afternoon,
Very interesting article, and commentary. I agree with some and I disagree with some. The rest falls by the wayside. Here's my input; take it as you like.
I am an engineer. I have been an engineer all my life. I was found using tools at he age of 6. I have been repairing, disassembling, reassembling, building, rebuilding, creating, designing, and experimenting since then. All of this was done in addition to hours working as an engineer, or as a student. I have such a passion for "true" engineering, that I have two distinct degrees in it. I have left companies voluntarily and involuntarily; but that fact is not really of any importance in the end. When I was laid off, I knew I did not want to reenter a company like the ones I had worked in. Part of my layoff may have been related to my disinterest in the company culture; the majority was related to an economic crunch. I wanted to make a difference in the world, so I took a job teaching math in a small town school. The job didn't pay much, but I sought it out, because I knew I needed time to decide what kind of company I wanted to work for. That was if I didn't start my own. I am back working for a small company now.
During my tenure as a teacher, I learned a few things about why there might be fewer interested students in engineering and science. I don't necessarily agree that it has to do with the teachers. I will even be bold enough to say that the problem doesn't completely stem from the school system. I won't disagree that there are poor teachers, just as there are poor engineers. The realization that I experienced almost kept me in a teaching career.
I taught students in grades 6, 7, and 8. This job put me in the ideal position to study contemporary culture and its effect on our youth. In my humble opinion, I believe that our contemporary culture should bear the brunt of the responsibility for today's youth. The role models of our children have changed since I was young. I was fortunate to have grown up with man landing on the moon. That era in American history made our entire country acutely aware of the importance of engineering. Today, our children are learning that if you play a sport really well, you could become a multi-millionaire; all this without doing a stitch or work. Heck, you could even be a convicted drug dealer and become a professional ball player. You can lie, and cheat to get ahead. But if you get caught, just tell them your sorry and it will be forgotten; you don't have to mean it. Todays definition of success is measured, for starters, by the size of the bank account and the cost of the toys. When I was young, success was measured by the number of people you were honest with, respected, and how hard one worked. Today, success is negated by how hard one works.
I hope my next statement makes some parents think; I am not letting anyone off the hook here. I humbly believe that the concept of work-free success comes from the parents themselves, echoing the athletes, pop musicians (if they deserve that title), and Hollywood's message. As a teacher, I had parents ask me, "what are you doing to make sure my child is doing the assigned work?". That was a quote people; I actually had most parents try to pressure and bully me into doing THEIR job of policing and reprimanding if the child didn't meet their responsibilities. I cannot stress enough how important it is that we parents put the pressure on our children to stand up to their responsibilities and expectations. This goes beyond school, but does not include sports. A child can miss a sports practice to study.
Another thing about today's culture: if you have the money, pay someone to do it for you (there is that no work attitude again). What happened to the days of the 'old Yankee' when we fixed everything ourselves? Do we need another depression to put things in perspective? I am not suggesting another depression would be good for the country, don't worry. What I am saying, is that engineers are made young. Children that grow up seeing how things work, ask questions. Inquisition breeds inquisition. People that ask questions other than, 'can you just do it for me?' become scientists and engineers.
Another humble opinion, we need to support local and small. We have abandoned our home towns and replaced it with large corporate companies, large banks, Hollywood, and professional sports, etc. There are local small companies, artists, farmers, banks, musicians (yes, they are musicians). The large corporate company, as a majority, has abandoned the individual for profit. That is why we see so many unappreciated engineers and scientists. So why don't we turn our backs on what has abandoned our best interests, and collectively join together to make a difference. I now work in a small company locally to me. I shop in local stores, and I go to local restaurants. I would rather take the job risk of a small company going under and losing me, than a large one going higher by stepping on my back.
I would gladly encourage any child that has an interest in engineering, to pursue it.
Just a few humble thoughts from a happy engineer.
The comments that I read indicate that there are lots of unresolved issues out there and also a lot of job dissatisfaction. Nevertheless, I have been working as an engineer since the year 1950, and am still enjoying it. I started out with a Bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering, but at first, the only work that I could get was as a layout draftman. However, with additional graduate school education, leading to several advanced degrees, I was able to start again in engineering research and development, and was able to put my advanced training to good use. There are few guarantees in life, so I believe that you have to really enjoy what you are doing and just plug away at it. Looking over my career, I have been employed at five corporations and I am happy that I got to work on a wide variety of very challenging engineering problems. I was able to publish my work and travel to engineering meetings in the United States and Europe. I much prefer working to just being retired.
April 19, 2005 2:33 PMI'm and engineer and scientist with a career of over 45 years and have enjoyed and been well paid the whole time. Our schools and kids are failing in math, science and technology, because they are not motivated and most of us have left everything up to the school, and they can't do it alone. Community, business, parents all need to get involved in the K-12 school and change our current lethargy to one of success like we were for the past hundred years. FSEA Future Scientists and Engineers of America is the model program to make that happen. www.fsea.org
April 19, 2005 2:33 PMIt's easy for Kirkpatrick to say what any lesser-paid administrator would say-- he's talking about business as if he didn't need it himself ... He should be looking at education from the vantage of what he himself needs: then he'd realize how backward his system is:-- we don't need more of the same kind of engineers: We need thinkers.
We need thinkers like thinking is worth anything: not just more-skilled hands; not just more gifts.
The Chinese system is catching-up: With fourtimes as many people, they are only now turning out the amount of engineers any educated society can....
Our Country needs to go beyond such education ... One of the reasons we have religion, -in this Country,- is because human systems are finite-state configurations; while we, need to think outside the black-box ... because we can....
/rkp
April 19, 2005 3:30 PMWhen the American people finally get kicked hard enough in the global economy (and I expect this will take another ten to twenty years) then, and only then, will real changes occur.
Don't blame corporate America. WE are at fault. As a nation we are incredibly wasteful of our physical AND intellectual resources.
An earlier writer talked about sending their children into law as a field. Conservatively, lawyers are a $300B a year drag on our economy that other nations don't have.
Rigid EPA rules and the ability to bring lawsuits willy nilly have killed economic development. Try running a manufacturing plant without having government bureaucrats and every tree hugger waving a subpoena breathing down your neck. And we wonder why manufacturing jobs are steadily moving overseas?
We wonder why we have a gas crisis even though a new refinery hasn't been built in this nation for 30 years.
We wonder why we are so dependent on fossil fuels while worldwide developments in nuclear energy (that we have kept out through threat of lawsuit for 30 years) could safely and cost competitively solve our energy crisis and provide enough excess power to crack water into hydrogen for car fuel. This would eliminate most smog, greenhouse gases, and help reduce global dependence on oil, the sale of which is the source of much Arab extremist revenue. By the way, no comments about solar, wind, and geothermal electrical production plants. I've worked in all of them, and they are too capital intensive (because of low energy density) to be cost effective.
Yet our citizens blithely gripe about high costs and fewer jobs. They are institutionally ignorant. Our primary education system is a black hole, controlled by unions and government bureaucrats- the worst of both worlds. It will not get better until it is privatized. Then, and only then, will you see innovations that increase learning and drive down cost of delivery, as entrepreneurs pursue parental vouchers and have to offer students more to bring in the business. No other country spends so much on primary education and gets so little. It amazes me that our higher education system, which is essentially a competitive, voucher based system, is the envy of the world, but we are so afraid as a people to incorporate the same system in our public schools, which are pathetic.
Folks, the enemy isn't greedy corporate America. It's greedy and lazy us.
April 19, 2005 7:26 PMThe chinese PM recently visited bangalore and requested training for chinese engineers there?100s chinese electrical and electronics small assemblers in china copying all US and EU products.
A chinese man copying US and EU electrical switchgear products copying and dumping all over the world told me that the chinese goal to over take US after 20 years.
The chinese now copying any US or EU electrical switchgear products and marketing from dubai free trade zone.
Thanks
mathew
For each engineer, scientist or technologist performing productive work in a corporation domiciled in the United States you will find multiple teams of lawyers, CPAs, accountants, government agencies and streams of brainstem managers who sabotage his work. Then the teams of lawyers, CPAs, accountants, government agencies and brainstem managers blame the engineer, scientist or technologist for the failure of his/her productive work. The teams of lawyers, CPAs, accountants, managers, executives, officers and board of directors congratulate themselves for the success of their American corporation but for the failures of the engineer, promulgate double-speak that appeases the stockholders, apply lavish raises and bonuses to themselves, complain that the American engineer, scientist or technologist is too expensive for his poor quality of productive work, and then offshore the employee's job to some dog in India, while the engineer, scientist or technologist must start out all over again to find a way to support himself and his family in his own country. If successful in finding another job in another American corporation thereafter, the engineer, scientist or technologist must then begin this process all over again.
April 20, 2005 5:51 PMIs he kidding? (Is he on drugs?)
April 20, 2005 7:50 PMSo many people complain about the job loss to foreign countries, but how many of them can honestly look around their homes and say they bought American MADE products whenever they were available? I'm just as guilty, but until we all start buying US-made products regardless of the price, the companies will continue to go abroad to produce. The companies are no more greedy than the consumer who takes advantage of those same tax breaks by purchasing those foreign-made products sold by US companies. Automotive is the most visible over-seas producer, yet we all own shoes made in Indonesia, electronics made in Asia, and cars made in Mexico and Europe. We buy juice from Brazil, beer from Germany, and steel from Canada. Everyone wants to have the job in a suit and make 6-digits but no one wants to make the products. Corporate greed learned it from the consumer.
April 21, 2005 8:16 AMUntil the US market values engineers, the prospect of building a student base in the various fields is very dim. With the takeover of corporate America, the "beancounter" has devalued research and/or inovation in engineering (no practical immediate results on the bottom line). I have been reasonablly sucessful in my career, but would not go in that direction again.
April 21, 2005 10:23 AMI am not a degreed engineer, however I have pure science degrees. I daily work with the results of
graduate engineer's problem solving. I see incomplete prints, contradictory specifications,
a disregard for costs with designs that do not consider the stock mill lengths of the metals required for the design. Seldom do we see a project
were we are not making assumptions about what is needed to complete the work. This failure to do the
job completely and accurately is s mirror of what is
present in engineering education today. Institutions are interested in a high graduation ratio; tests are graded with "partial credit" and
the idea is placed that a partial design or partially accurated bill of materials is acceptable. The loss of engineering positions and
and manufacturing base to foreign production is
not, in a major way, cost driven as we delude our selves into believing, but driven by quality that a complex and technical world has come to demand.
We still have a promising leadership position in the world in basic research and development, thanks to programs like DARPA and others, but those efforts are driven by degrees in chemistry, physics, mathematics and other pure sciences, not engineering in most instances. The solution to the erosion engineering faces today
can crudely be stated, "Get your shit together,
do the job completely, accurately and cost effectively...and quit your bitchin' about how unfair the world is to you... and realize that your vocational degree is not a right to financial success, but a ticket to opportunity.
Not only that I am a landed immigrant to Canada. Even though the courses which we had done way back home, matches the courses here, the people here still there is a "virtual"gap between the work we had performed there is not the same as of here. If this is the appreciation I get then how can I teach the children which way to go!
April 21, 2005 6:19 PMWell, I've been an EE for a little over 10 years. I was laid off April 2002 and have odd jobbed myself to bankruptcy. I had to loose everything (thank God for parents). Recently, I accepted a job installing DISH Network Satellite Receiver Dishes (Satellites Unlimited). Believe it or not, the job has the possibility of paying even more then what I was paid as an EE (but I have to work hard to do so (pays commision and bonuses for meeting goals; my EE positions rarely did); at past my prime, it will be a little hard, but do-able). Just wanted to pass this along; stay out of Engineering and look for a good trade that can withstand market issues. Just my two cents. When businesses can convince everyone that professional positions in Engineer are both stable and long term, then maybe people will return to studying for an Engineering degree; to be honest, you will always do well finding your own niche and working for yourself; the job with Satellites Unlimited is the next best thing to working for yourself, and pays quite well. :)
April 22, 2005 6:57 PMIf Mr. Chamers is so interested in our youth's science and math education, why is he not pressing his company and other high tech firms to donate more funds to our schools and universities? If our schools are to turn around we can't rely on the federal and state governments. Corporate sponsorship of schools will hopefully get the students better equipment and books. Look at the problems Detroit schools are having. Some kids don't even have books for science and math classes, let alone toilet paper. Also, I know many adults who are killing themselves at 9-5 jobs and would like to go back to university to get a technical degree but because of their limited finances and the extremely high cost of tuition they are unable to do so. If Mr. Chambers is looking for more qualified individuals, why not sponsor some of these people?
April 23, 2005 9:00 AMBe proactive show students engineering skills and feats eg Chigago draw bridges,statue of liberty,golden gate bridge,hoover dam,empire state building,space program,as documentaries and give special prizes for inventions(engine inovations with alternate fuels)have more tv programmes promoting creativity(how does it work and what does it do)etc etc.....Promote general interest.
May 3, 2005 4:41 AMRegardless of the supposed instability of a career in engineering and science, the future of our economy depends upon excellence in these fields. The only way to a healthy economy is through manufacturing beginning with R&D. The medical and legal fields and the like are towards the fringes of the economy and depend upon the manufacturing base to support them.
May 16, 2005 6:36 PM
